<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The Skeptics Dilemma</title>
	<atom:link href="http://angryweasel.com/blog/?feed=rss2&#038;p=404" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://angryweasel.com/blog/?p=404</link>
	<description>notes and rants about testing and quality from alan page</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 21:04:59 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	
	<item>
		<title>By: Alan Page</title>
		<link>http://angryweasel.com/blog/?p=404&#038;cpage=1#comment-11905</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Page</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 06:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://angryweasel.com/blog/?p=404#comment-11905</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the comments, James..

You&#039;re right - I confused the terms - there is a difference, but I think you (and hopefully other readers) will see the point.

I like the sharp knife analogy. My fear is that there are many people who say, &quot;I don&#039;t use knives, because I&#039;m afraid I&#039;ll get cut&quot;. We need more people who know the knife is sharp, so they take the time to learn how to use it safely. That&#039;s a gap (at least from what I see in blogs, twitter, etc.)

As far as test case counts (and subjects like that), I usually dig deep and ask, &quot;Is there any situation where these may be useful?&quot;. Many times, I can think of something, so the effort is worth it (although I continually fail to find an answer to this question in regards to test case counts).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comments, James..</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right &#8211; I confused the terms &#8211; there is a difference, but I think you (and hopefully other readers) will see the point.</p>
<p>I like the sharp knife analogy. My fear is that there are many people who say, &#8220;I don&#8217;t use knives, because I&#8217;m afraid I&#8217;ll get cut&#8221;. We need more people who know the knife is sharp, so they take the time to learn how to use it safely. That&#8217;s a gap (at least from what I see in blogs, twitter, etc.)</p>
<p>As far as test case counts (and subjects like that), I usually dig deep and ask, &#8220;Is there any situation where these may be useful?&#8221;. Many times, I can think of something, so the effort is worth it (although I continually fail to find an answer to this question in regards to test case counts).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: James Bach</title>
		<link>http://angryweasel.com/blog/?p=404&#038;cpage=1#comment-11902</link>
		<dc:creator>James Bach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 03:29:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://angryweasel.com/blog/?p=404#comment-11902</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think what you are trying to say is that all practices are heuristic: they may have problem-solving value in context, and they may fail. Sounds good to me.

My concern is that you seem to:

1. confuse skepticism with scoffing. 
2. confuse concern with rejection.
3. confuse rejection with concern.

Skepticism is not the same as scoffing, although popular culture conflates them nearly always. Skepticism is the fear of certainty. I practice being skeptical of every one of my favorite techniques, because I think that protects me from complacency and self-deception. Skepticism always involves some form of doubt, even if that doubt is rather remote and abstract. Skepticism does not require me to scoff at proposed ideas, however.

I am concerned about some good metrics, model-based testing, etc. for the same reason I am concerned when I am holding a sharp knife: I am aware of specific dangers and I wish to avoid them. This is not a bad thing. Expressing concern (watch out for that knife!) doesn&#039;t mean I reject the tool or idea. Even when an idea or tool is useful, it still may not be a worthy use of time and resources. I recommend taking objections to your favorite practices seriously; respond to them; deal with them; don&#039;t just complain about skepticism gone wild.

On the other hand, sometimes I do mean to reject a practice, and my rejection is instead interpreted as some kind of vague concern. For instance, test case counts are a popular and I believe incredibly stupid metric. It seems to me almost impossible to use test case counts in a responsible and useful way. I reject test case metrics. For someone to come back and say something about babies and bathwater is just annoying. There is no baby there; just sewage.

In your post, you haven&#039;t clearly delineated these issues. But inasmuch as you are saying that ideas and tool may be sometimes good and sometimes bad, sure. I mean, I&#039;m skeptical about that, but it seems reasonable.

-- james]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think what you are trying to say is that all practices are heuristic: they may have problem-solving value in context, and they may fail. Sounds good to me.</p>
<p>My concern is that you seem to:</p>
<p>1. confuse skepticism with scoffing.<br />
2. confuse concern with rejection.<br />
3. confuse rejection with concern.</p>
<p>Skepticism is not the same as scoffing, although popular culture conflates them nearly always. Skepticism is the fear of certainty. I practice being skeptical of every one of my favorite techniques, because I think that protects me from complacency and self-deception. Skepticism always involves some form of doubt, even if that doubt is rather remote and abstract. Skepticism does not require me to scoff at proposed ideas, however.</p>
<p>I am concerned about some good metrics, model-based testing, etc. for the same reason I am concerned when I am holding a sharp knife: I am aware of specific dangers and I wish to avoid them. This is not a bad thing. Expressing concern (watch out for that knife!) doesn&#8217;t mean I reject the tool or idea. Even when an idea or tool is useful, it still may not be a worthy use of time and resources. I recommend taking objections to your favorite practices seriously; respond to them; deal with them; don&#8217;t just complain about skepticism gone wild.</p>
<p>On the other hand, sometimes I do mean to reject a practice, and my rejection is instead interpreted as some kind of vague concern. For instance, test case counts are a popular and I believe incredibly stupid metric. It seems to me almost impossible to use test case counts in a responsible and useful way. I reject test case metrics. For someone to come back and say something about babies and bathwater is just annoying. There is no baby there; just sewage.</p>
<p>In your post, you haven&#8217;t clearly delineated these issues. But inasmuch as you are saying that ideas and tool may be sometimes good and sometimes bad, sure. I mean, I&#8217;m skeptical about that, but it seems reasonable.</p>
<p>&#8211; james</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ben Simo</title>
		<link>http://angryweasel.com/blog/?p=404&#038;cpage=1#comment-11900</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Simo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 02:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://angryweasel.com/blog/?p=404#comment-11900</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes! Good ideas don&#039;t work all the time. And bad ideas often work some of the time.

I am most skeptical of many of the things that have provided me with the most value. (I&#039;m even skeptical of this claim.) Skepticism is the rejection of certainty; not rejection of everything that is uncertain.

Thanks for the reminder to question to understand rather than dismiss.

Ben]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes! Good ideas don&#8217;t work all the time. And bad ideas often work some of the time.</p>
<p>I am most skeptical of many of the things that have provided me with the most value. (I&#8217;m even skeptical of this claim.) Skepticism is the rejection of certainty; not rejection of everything that is uncertain.</p>
<p>Thanks for the reminder to question to understand rather than dismiss.</p>
<p>Ben</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
